Episode 3 – Nathan Wrigley

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Hi! Hello, everyone, and welcome to
Nathan Wrigley from WP Builds.

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I’m so happy to have you here
on WP Mondo, a new web show.

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And I’m looking forward to hear
your story, your personal story,

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your story around
WordPress and

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your WP Builds.

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And I want to let you
introduce yourself. Okay.

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So first off, this is really
unusual for me because normally

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I’m in the other chair,
if you know what I mean.

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Normally, I’m the person
person asking questions,

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and so I’m gonna find this
a little bit peculiar.

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Because I always ask that question
as well. Introduce yourself.

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So, okay. Here we go. My name’s
Nathan Wrigley. I live in the UK.

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I live in Yorkshire, which is
a really nice part of the UK.

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Fairly, it’s kind of like three
quarters of the way between

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the bottom of the UK. Well,
the bottom of England and Scotland.

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So it’s up in the north and it’s
pretty rural. Live close to the sea.

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I have a family,
wife and three kids,

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and all of that’s really nice as
well in this part of the world.

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And I guess you wanna know about
the WordPress-y bit maybe.

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I didn’t start WordPress as
as early as a lot of the people

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I interview when I do these
interviews on my podcast.

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Some people have an incredible
heritage, you know,

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going back almost two
decades in some cases.

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For me, it was about
twenty fifteen.

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I honestly can’t tell you the date,
but it was about twenty fifteen.

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I’ve been building websites since
before the year two thousand.

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Started off doing it in a text
editor, HTML, and then tables,

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and then CSS came along, and
it was all very horrible.

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And then discovered things like
Dreamweaver, which is an Adobe well,

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it wasn’t originally Adobe,
but it became an Adobe product.

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So played with
that for a while.

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And then CMSs came along, PHP
started to get, you know, popular.

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And I began playing with things like
Magento, and Drupal, and Joomla,

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and got really,
really into Drupal,

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on the same level as I am now into
WordPress. I was really fascinated by it.

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And then when the version
went from seven to eight,

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I don’t know if you
know, but Drupal,

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when they go from one
major release to another,

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they kind of disregard a lot of
the heritage. They say, okay.

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It’s a breaking change. If
you go from seven to eight,

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you’re gonna have to
rebuild those sites.

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Don’t click the button because that’s
not gonna be the way it works.

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So I’ve done that a few times with
Drupal and thought, do you know what?

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I’m fed up of that. Let’s go
to something a little bit more

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backwards compatible. So I, you know,
messed around and found WordPress,

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installed it, and immediately thought
it was really nice to look at.

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I know the UI hasn’t changed
in the admin much,

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although that’s
about to change.

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But at the time, the Drupal UI was
significantly… it was not as nice.

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Let’s just leave it that way. It
wasn’t as nice as the WordPress UI,

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so I thought, oh, okay. Let’s play
around with this, and that’s it.

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I’ve done nothing else ever since.
Literally done nothing else.

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I’ve played with WordPress, tinkered with WordPress, built websites with

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WordPress, podcast about WordPress, dream about WordPress.

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Oh. You know, just it’s all a bit pathetic,
really, but that’s the way it is.

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And, and yeah.

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And then, more recently, in about
the year twenty sixteen, I think it was,

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I was in a Facebook group
about WordPress, you know,

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and got chatting to a chap there and
an English fella called David Waumsley.

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And I can’t even remember how
it happened, but it basically,

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I asked him the question,
do you wanna do a podcast?

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You know, like you do. And he said,
yeah. Alright. Let’s give it a go.

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And I don’t honestly think any
of us had either of us had any

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expectation that we’d do it
for any length of time.

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We just thought, let’s
see what it’s like.

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And I haven’t not done it since then.
And I’m in, you know, what is that?

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It’s not eight and eight and
a bit years or something now.

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Produced episodes pretty much
every week, and it’s grown.

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And now it’s what I do. David
Waumsley is now no longer

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doing the WP Builds podcast with
me, but he’s still a good friend,

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and we speak a lot and
do another podcast,

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which has nothing to
do with WordPress.

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It’s all about HTML,
CSS, and web standards.

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But I won’t promote that here because
that’s not WordPress related.

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But yeah. Yeah. Is that enough?
Can I should I stop now? Yeah.

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That was a pretty long introduction.
Yeah. Go. Great. Okay. Thank you.

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There’s nothing else to say.
The first thing I wanted

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to say is that the goal, yes, of
this category is host the host.

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And it’s because you put the light
on other people when you host them.

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And that’s the goal to have you
to have the light on you for once.

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Yeah. You know?
That’s why,

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I contacted you and other
people in the same, I mean,

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other interviewers and hosts of,
of other shows and podcasts.

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And yeah. Great. And, yes, I remember
the Drupal seven to eight period.

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But, yeah, Drupal is, good and as it’s
I mean, they’re to each their own,

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and I think they are good use
cases for other CMSs as well.

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Yeah. I think so. Yeah.
I really didn’t I didn’t have

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any objection to Drupal. It was
just that, I just, I don’t know.

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You know how when you just get
a little bit, what’s the word?

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When you’re over familiar with
something and I’ve been using

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Drupal for years and I cast my net around and it just looked so nice.

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And then I discovered
the community much later.

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And that was, I think, the glue
that held me in WordPress and

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meant that I wasn’t gonna go
anywhere because I didn’t find

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that same community in Drupal. I know
it exists, but I never found it.

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Perhaps if I had, I would
have stayed with Drupal.

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But, I found
the WordPress community,

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and that’s the sort of glue that
bound me to it for the last,

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well, nine years or
so. Yeah. Yeah.

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So, you mean the community
and especially,

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I will talk about WordCamp Europe
because at WordCamp Europe,

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we are meeting people
from all over the world.

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So it’s very… that feeling
that we get when we arrive.

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I was not an organizer before. This
year it was a bit different.

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But, I mean, when you arrive and you
you know that you are going to,

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oh, I’m going to see Nathan.
I’m going to see Bob,

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and I’m going to see my friends from,
I don’t know, Bangladesh and Japan.

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You know? Yeah. I love that.
Yeah. Me too. It’s great.

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Those events are properly
brilliant, actually.

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And if you’re listening to this and you’ve
never attended a WordPress event,

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whether that’s, you know,
a more local Meetup,

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which is probably just one
evening or something like that,

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or a local WordCamp, which
might be a day or two days.

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I actually went to
one on Friday. Yeah.

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In Whitley Bay, and that was
just one day, you know,

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began at nine in the morning and
finished at, I don’t know, half four,

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five, something like that.
That was really nice as well.

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The, it’s profoundly friendly. It
would be my message, you know.

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And if you’re very gregarious
and outgoing, you won’t hesitate,

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will you? You just
go and enjoy it.

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But if you’re a bit more
introverted or shy, then,

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fear not because it really is
very, very, very welcoming.

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And, over a period of years, you do
get some great friendships going on,

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don’t you? And you meet people and they attend events repeatedly like you.

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And so very soon, you’re in
a room full of friends rather

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than a room full of would be
friends or strangers. It’s lovely.

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Yes. I totally agree with you,
and I’m a WordCamp addict.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if I could,
I would go on every continent.

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Yeah. Oh, that’d be nice.
Let’s travel together. Yeah.

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And go somewhere,
some places. Okay.

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So, you mentioned that you were
doing, like, work for clients with,

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websites before to have a show. Are you still doing that or in parallel?

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No. I there was a, so okay. So I was
doing, you know, freelance work.

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It was very much
a local business.

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So it was just me,
but I would,

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get in other people to help
me with bits that I wasn’t

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particularly good at
or willing to do.

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And and that would that
worked really well.

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Being, a little rural is the wrong word,
but it’s a small community.

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I don’t live in a big city, and it
means that you get to know everybody.

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And it didn’t take long for me when we
moved here to sort of establish that,

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and so word-of-mouth travels. And so I
was building client websites for years.

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And then the podcast
was just a gimmick.

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It was just something
for a bit of fun.

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It was entirely the sort of
thing that I would do on an evening

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or a weekend. But slowly, the two
things went in different directions.

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So the client one went down as
the podcasting one went up.

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And then at some point, I couldn’t
tell you when, several years ago,

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I said farewell to
my last client.

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And now I just do
podcasting, which is a,

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a thing that my children
can’t quite cope with.

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You know, when people say, what do you do for a living? And I do a podcast.

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There’s always this
impression that, oh, yeah.

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That’s not really a job, is it?
What are you doing with your life?

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But, that is now what I do. I make
content, audio content, video content,

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that kind of thing. So, yeah,
the clients are gone. Okay. Okay.

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And when you were working
with clients at the same time,

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how did you manage time between
the two activities? I would say. Yeah.

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Basically, I just did the podcast
as an evening and weekend thing.

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So I would do it in
the evenings and weekends,

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just in my own spare time and
keep the client things going

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during the Monday to Friday. So
there was never really an overlap

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in terms of time. One
didn’t eat the other,

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but it became obvious to me that the podcast was something that I was

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really, really into. I… do
you know what?

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I have this habit in my life,
and maybe you can identify with

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this if you’re the same
kind of character as me.

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I’m not very good at
sticking with things.

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I begin things and then very
quickly begin another thing.

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And then soon after that, I’ll begin
another thing and another thing.

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And so it goes, and the things
never get finished.

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I’m a good starter,
a terrible executor.

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But podcasting stuck, and there
was no reason for it to stick.

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It wasn’t something that I was you know, it wasn’t generating any revenue.

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It wasn’t something that was, other than
it was it was just consuming my time,

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But I kept doing it.
And so at some point,

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my intuitions obviously clicked
into gear and thought,

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you must like this on a fairly
deep level if, you know,

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if you can’t commit to anything in
life, but you can commit to this,

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you must enjoy it. So, yeah, so
at some point I just thought,

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well, what if I drop
the clients a little bit and go

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in search of sponsorship?
And so that’s what I did.

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And the sponsorship kind of took
over the client work and then

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I got increasingly into the sponsorship
thing and not the client thing.

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And then, you know, the rest is what
it is, history. Nice. That’s nice.

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Nice story. Can I ask you how old are
your children for being embarrassed?

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Yeah. No. No. No. It’s fine. My
well, I’ve got three children.

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I have a daughter
who’s twenty.

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I have a son who’s seventeen, and
I have another son, and he’s fifteen.

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And so they’re at that lovely
age where they, you know,

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they’ve got their own mind
and their own agenda.

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But, unfortunately, they
don’t have their own cars.

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So, I have to take them everywhere
still. Yeah. Because of the rural area.

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Yeah. Yeah. The taxi service
is what I’ve become.

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But they are at that lovely age
where you can talk to them on

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a deep and profound level, and
they have their own opinions,

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and their opinions
differ from yours.

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And, sometimes that’s good,
sometimes it’s not so good,

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but, yeah, lovely age,
enjoying that a lot.

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So, yeah, so you said they
it was strange for them to say,

00:12:14.737 –> 00:12:17.317
your father is doing
a podcast or? Yeah.

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Just kind of like, you
know, what do you do?

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I mean, most people where
we live, you know,

00:12:21.217 –> 00:12:24.092
they own a shop or they’ve got a job,
they’re doing this, they’re doing that.

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There’s not many there’s not many
podcasters sprinkled throughout the,

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the society, I wouldn’t imagine. If
you were lining up a thousand people.

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I’m pretty sure that almost none
of them would be a podcaster.

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So it’s a pretty quirky
thing to do, I think.

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But, also, I think my… I’m gonna I’ll
say this. I’ll embarrass them a bit.

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My kids have this relationship
with things like YouTube where,

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you know, they watch a YouTube
video and it’s all very glamorous

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and the people are doing
amazing things and, you know,

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they’re famous and they’re doing
stupid things and all of this and,

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you know, it just
looks like brilliant.

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And so they take the mickey out
of me because the production

00:13:00.552 –> 00:13:03.192
values of my podcast
is not that.

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You know, I don’t have this
massive budget to go out and do

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crazy things like Mr. Beast does.
Yeah. And so that’s the comparison.

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You know, they’re like, you
know, they just make fun.

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They tell me, do you
say this sort of thing?

00:13:15.132 –> 00:13:17.932
Do you say this sort of thing?
And no. I don’t go any of that.

00:13:17.932 –> 00:13:23.557
But, yeah, it’s fun. My three kids
are two years younger than yours each.

00:13:23.557 –> 00:13:27.677
So Oh, interesting. The elder
is seventeen. Okay.

00:13:27.677 –> 00:13:30.717
And I don’t remember if it was
the first or the second

00:13:30.797 –> 00:13:32.832
my second son who
said… I said,

00:13:32.832 –> 00:13:35.812
I’m going to start a YouTube
channel and one replied,

00:13:36.192 –> 00:13:40.212
I’m going to stop laughing when you get
at least one thousand subscribers.

00:13:40.352 –> 00:13:44.737
Yeah. There you go. There you go.
That’s the yeah. Similar reaction.

00:13:44.737 –> 00:13:49.302
You know? I’ll laugh until you
make a go of it. Yeah.

00:13:49.302 –> 00:13:54.502
Yeah. And are they into
WordCamps? No. Gosh. No.

00:13:54.662 –> 00:13:59.277
It was interesting because,
during lockdown, COVID,

00:13:59.737 –> 00:14:04.057
the one of the first intuitions that I had was, well, we need projects because,

00:14:04.057 –> 00:14:06.297
you know, this was in that
period where the schools hadn’t

00:14:06.297 –> 00:14:09.132
made any adjustments and
everybody was kinda left to their

00:14:09.132 –> 00:14:13.212
own devices a little bit. So I
I sat them all down in front

00:14:13.212 –> 00:14:17.287
of a fresh install of WordPress, and
I had this great ambition that this,

00:14:17.287 –> 00:14:19.687
right, this is what we’re gonna do
during the course of this week.

00:14:19.687 –> 00:14:20.887
We’re all gonna
build a website.

00:14:20.887 –> 00:14:23.127
Each of us can have our own
website and I’ll publish it and

00:14:23.127 –> 00:14:27.262
I’ll get the domain. And honestly,
it lasted about an hour.

00:14:28.522 –> 00:14:32.942
It was so uninteresting to them and
I was really kind of enthusiastic.

00:14:33.082 –> 00:14:36.287
Look what you can do this. But
actually it was quite illustrative

00:14:36.507 –> 00:14:40.187
as well as how…
how to describe it.

00:14:40.187 –> 00:14:42.792
If you’re not interested
in it, it’s hard.

00:14:43.012 –> 00:14:46.212
It can be hard to put a website
together even with all the tools

00:14:46.212 –> 00:14:48.902
and the plugins and the great things that we’ve got in the WordPress

00:14:48.947 –> 00:14:53.087
ecosystem. It was a great demonstration of unless you’re really

00:14:53.087 –> 00:14:56.067
unless you’re quite committed to it,
building a website is still

00:14:56.447 –> 00:14:59.982
potentially quite hard. And
and they came across so many

00:14:59.982 –> 00:15:02.862
problems in the space of half
an hour, and I answered them all.

00:15:02.862 –> 00:15:05.262
And, okay. No. You have to do that.
Why do you have to do that?

00:15:05.262 –> 00:15:09.517
Why? why? You just do. Alright?
That’s just the way it is. Yeah.

00:15:09.517 –> 00:15:13.117
And, but they yeah. None of them
none of them managed to get

00:15:13.117 –> 00:15:19.352
over the line of producing a website. So
I was a failure. I can relate so much.

00:15:19.352 –> 00:15:22.172
It’s, for my teenagers,

00:15:22.312 –> 00:15:25.667
it’s like that’s the things for
the old people. You know?

00:15:25.667 –> 00:15:28.547
Right. Right. Yeah. And that
that’s actually a struggle in

00:15:28.547 –> 00:15:31.667
the WordPress community, and how
to engage the younger generation

00:15:31.667 –> 00:15:34.392
is a real question.
You know? Yeah.

00:15:34.392 –> 00:15:37.592
So They’re kind of, my
my children have been raised

00:15:37.592 –> 00:15:42.617
in an era where every human being
that they encounter has a mobile phone.

00:15:43.497 –> 00:15:46.937
And every human being that they
encounter is connected through

00:15:46.937 –> 00:15:49.817
some social network.
And so, you know,

00:15:49.817 –> 00:15:54.372
there’s tools to publish, and
the idea of ownership to them,

00:15:54.372 –> 00:15:58.052
which is an important bedrock of
of WordPress is that, you know,

00:15:58.052 –> 00:16:02.347
you own your own data. But that’s quite
a hard thing to get a hold of.

00:16:02.347 –> 00:16:03.807
Why why would that
be important?

00:16:03.947 –> 00:16:06.827
Because, you know, if I
put it on I don’t know.

00:16:06.827 –> 00:16:09.627
I say things like Facebook,
and none of my children well,

00:16:09.627 –> 00:16:12.652
my children tell me that no children
of their age use Facebook,

00:16:12.652 –> 00:16:16.752
not one. They’re all on these other
platforms. There’s myriad other things.

00:16:17.052 –> 00:16:19.132
But they, you know, they
haven’t encountered that,

00:16:19.132 –> 00:16:22.247
and it’s okay for them to
post it on those networks,

00:16:22.247 –> 00:16:23.927
and they don’t see
the importance of that.

00:16:23.927 –> 00:16:25.607
I guess one day, maybe
that’ll bite them, you know,

00:16:25.607 –> 00:16:28.312
if an account gets hacked or
an account gets canceled

00:16:28.312 –> 00:16:31.612
or deleted or something like that,
perhaps that will hit home.

00:16:31.912 –> 00:16:34.312
But the social networks
and all of those things,

00:16:34.312 –> 00:16:35.912
they provide what they
want. They can publish.

00:16:35.912 –> 00:16:38.557
And that they haven’t got an interest
in publishing to the population

00:16:38.617 –> 00:16:40.077
as a whole, you
know, the world.

00:16:40.297 –> 00:16:43.337
They’re just interested in the direct
communication or the group

00:16:43.337 –> 00:16:46.122
messaging or whatever
it may be. And I yeah.

00:16:46.122 –> 00:16:47.802
And I think in
the WordPress space,

00:16:47.802 –> 00:16:50.202
we are gonna struggle with
the generational thing.

00:16:50.202 –> 00:16:53.497
You only have to go to a big
WordCamp to see the age.

00:16:53.497 –> 00:16:57.257
There’s not many teenagers there,
is there? Not really. Yeah.

00:16:57.257 –> 00:17:01.597
Indeed. I actually there
was, twenty two years old,

00:17:02.137 –> 00:17:04.872
at the Switzerland Community
Day that we… Oh, nice.

00:17:05.072 –> 00:17:10.052
Organized some time ago, and
she’s, aspiring teacher.

00:17:10.327 –> 00:17:13.927
Oh, nice. And yeah. And then
and what she said, it’s actually

00:17:13.927 –> 00:17:15.687
in the notes.
We took notes.

00:17:15.687 –> 00:17:19.067
It was a conversation about
Meetups, WordCamps, contribution.

00:17:19.562 –> 00:17:23.822
And it was, yeah,
like, eye opening. She said

00:17:24.602 –> 00:17:30.017
the competing proprietary platforms are
working with influencers on TikTok.

00:17:31.437 –> 00:17:35.437
They pay them, and so there are,
like, four hundred, five hundred,

00:17:35.837 –> 00:17:38.977
influencers that
promote that platform.

00:17:39.792 –> 00:17:44.432
You know, also starting with a w,
but in three letters. Yeah.

00:17:44.432 –> 00:17:46.832
And they have giant marketing
teams as well, you know,

00:17:46.832 –> 00:17:48.452
because because
they’re a for profit.

00:17:49.507 –> 00:17:52.787
And I don’t have any clue what
kind of revenue stream they have,

00:17:52.787 –> 00:17:55.767
but I’m imagining it’s
fairly fairly decent.

00:17:56.232 –> 00:17:58.792
And they… my understanding is
they’ve got a marketing team of

00:17:58.792 –> 00:18:01.112
about four hundred people. I’m
getting this from, I think,

00:18:01.112 –> 00:18:03.532
Jamie Marsland came
with that statistic.

00:18:04.232 –> 00:18:06.337
And, and that’s
big, you know,

00:18:06.337 –> 00:18:08.837
because we don’t have anything like
that because it’s a philanthropic

00:18:08.977 –> 00:18:12.197
effort and the marketing team
is made up of volunteers.

00:18:13.342 –> 00:18:16.622
We’ve got an uphill struggle because
most people, I would imagine,

00:18:16.622 –> 00:18:19.997
if they’re looking for a website,
they’re gonna be influenced by,

00:18:20.077 –> 00:18:23.937
you know, I’ve seen that three
letter word. Yes. Creation tool.

00:18:24.317 –> 00:18:28.892
Yeah. That’s why, she
said if we would have young

00:18:28.892 –> 00:18:32.652
influencers doing the same for
WordPress, it would be a game changer.

00:18:32.652 –> 00:18:35.767
That was the game changer
word that struck me.

00:18:35.927 –> 00:18:41.387
And, also, I remember in 2023
in WordCamp Europe in Athens,

00:18:41.847 –> 00:18:48.062
there was a talk by Tycho de Valk
Okay. He’s showing Yeah.

00:18:48.062 –> 00:18:53.022
Yeah. Yeah. I hope I don’t
destroy his name too much.

00:18:53.022 –> 00:18:55.137
But, yeah, what he
said is, like,

00:18:55.137 –> 00:18:57.777
he has shown he was sixteen
years old that year,

00:18:57.777 –> 00:19:00.217
and he said I have
shown the oh, okay.

00:19:00.217 –> 00:19:04.362
I will say the name, the Wix and
Shopify and WordPress, three,

00:19:04.362 –> 00:19:08.602
like, admin dashboard.
And, yeah,

00:19:08.602 –> 00:19:12.267
the which one they recognised
among his friends of the same

00:19:12.267 –> 00:19:16.347
age and which one they preferred,
which one they like,

00:19:16.347 –> 00:19:19.622
and it was more engaging to
to work on it. You know?

00:19:19.622 –> 00:19:24.122
Really things that we have
to work on. You know?

00:19:24.742 –> 00:19:28.257
And yeah, that’s and you
mentioned Jamie Marsland.

00:19:28.797 –> 00:19:34.437
I love the video when his daughters come on Oh. On video and Yeah.

00:19:34.557 –> 00:19:38.112
And they are, like, total beginners
and say, okay. Let’s try this.

00:19:38.112 –> 00:19:43.652
And, oh, it was nice. It worked. And,
yeah, I will try to interview them.

00:19:43.767 –> 00:19:48.762
I might, put chunks
of the videos, the, like,

00:19:48.762 –> 00:19:53.262
best sentences on TikTok. Okay.
If you agree. I agree.

00:19:53.642 –> 00:19:59.022
I managed to have my first
son to be a volunteer at

00:19:59.642 –> 00:20:03.217
WordCamp Geneva two
years ago. But, well,

00:20:03.517 –> 00:20:08.497
he came because I said there will be
a speaker dinner and an after party.

00:20:09.037 –> 00:20:12.452
yes. You, you use the carrot and
yeah. You use the carrot approach.

00:20:12.452 –> 00:20:15.112
Yeah. That’s it. There’ll be
there’ll be prizes. Come along.

00:20:17.572 –> 00:20:19.352
Anyway. Yeah. Okay.

00:20:19.737 –> 00:20:24.377
So, being a podcaster in a rural
area with teenagers is,

00:20:24.777 –> 00:20:27.622
like you are the weirdo.
Right? That’s right.

00:20:27.622 –> 00:20:32.182
I mean, this about sums it up,
Patricia. That’s is about right.

00:20:32.182 –> 00:20:37.007
I am the weirdo. I’ll take that.
That’s good. Okay. Okay.

00:20:37.007 –> 00:20:42.227
I will put that in the tagline
or something. Okay.

00:20:42.367 –> 00:20:46.467
So, about WP Builds, really.
When it started,

00:20:46.992 –> 00:20:50.592
I think now you’re episode
three hundred and two. Right?

00:20:50.592 –> 00:20:54.512
Yeah. So we’ve got, we’ve got three
hundred and oh, it’s over here.

00:20:54.512 –> 00:20:56.647
I’m editing it on another
screen right next to me.

00:20:56.647 –> 00:21:00.667
The next episode coming on Thursday
is on three hundred and eighty one.

00:21:01.607 –> 00:21:03.207
And then but we also
do another show.

00:21:03.207 –> 00:21:05.127
So that’s one show that
comes out on a Thursday.

00:21:05.127 –> 00:21:07.122
That’s just called I
don’t even have a name,

00:21:07.122 –> 00:21:10.002
and that’s just called WP Builds
Podcast or something. Yeah.

00:21:10.002 –> 00:21:14.562
Okay. And then I do a show on Monday,
which is called This Week in WordPress,

00:21:14.562 –> 00:21:18.467
and that’s a different one. And we’re
on three hundred and two of those.

00:21:18.467 –> 00:21:22.547
So that’s a combined what’s that?
Six hundred and eighty three.

00:21:22.547 –> 00:21:24.592
Gosh. I’ve never actually
worked that out.

00:21:24.592 –> 00:21:27.472
Six hundred and eighty three episodes
is what we’ve managed to do.

00:21:27.472 –> 00:21:29.632
Plus countless other you know,
we’ve done loads of, like,

00:21:29.632 –> 00:21:33.012
webinars and videos with product
creators and stuff like that.

00:21:33.077 –> 00:21:36.377
It’s all on the website. So,
yeah, quite a few.

00:21:36.997 –> 00:21:40.937
I like the format of the
This Week in WordPress,

00:21:41.662 –> 00:21:45.902
because it’s live and people can
comment. I do that quite frequently.

00:21:45.902 –> 00:21:50.642
Yeah. It’s great. Thank you. That’s
lovely. There is always a lot of fun.

00:21:50.847 –> 00:21:53.427
Yeah. Yeah. I like
that format.

00:21:54.767 –> 00:21:57.992
Live can be, I mean,

00:21:59.112 –> 00:22:02.712
did you already have people
who said they do not want to come?

00:22:02.712 –> 00:22:04.632
Maybe you ask them,
do you want to join,

00:22:04.632 –> 00:22:08.837
but they feared
the live format. Yeah.

00:22:08.837 –> 00:22:11.637
So this is kind of an interesting
transition as well,

00:22:11.797 –> 00:22:13.817
in that when I
began the podcast,

00:22:13.877 –> 00:22:17.942
it was very much a process of
going out to people and asking

00:22:17.942 –> 00:22:19.482
if they wanted to
be on a podcast.

00:22:19.782 –> 00:22:21.782
And of course, how
else would you do it?

00:22:21.782 –> 00:22:24.502
You know, you’ve got to start
and you’ve got, you, you know,

00:22:24.502 –> 00:22:27.437
you’ve created this idea and
you want to get people on it.

00:22:27.437 –> 00:22:31.217
But then at some point the balance
went the other way and it was,

00:22:31.677 –> 00:22:36.497
it then became that I had, I just put
a form online and it got filled up.

00:22:37.022 –> 00:22:41.202
So no is the answer to your
question because the expectation

00:22:41.262 –> 00:22:45.307
is that if you fill out that
form, you must wish to come on.

00:22:45.307 –> 00:22:49.727
And so no. And as luck would have it, we’ve always had a bunch of people

00:22:49.747 –> 00:22:53.192
who are, willing to speak. You know, obviously that’s an important part.

00:22:53.202 –> 00:22:55.602
If you’re gonna go on a live show,
you need to be willing to,

00:22:55.602 –> 00:22:59.357
like, contribute and
sometimes, you know,

00:22:59.357 –> 00:23:02.497
be talked over and talk over other
people and just accept that.

00:23:03.437 –> 00:23:07.697
But also, fairly outgoing, I guess,
and a little bit confident.

00:23:08.162 –> 00:23:11.462
We have product creators, and we
have people who are just community.

00:23:12.322 –> 00:23:14.422
So no. Not not too
much of that.

00:23:15.137 –> 00:23:18.677
And I’ve never really had to pull
an episode because the person,

00:23:18.977 –> 00:23:22.577
you know, wasn’t that gregarious or
willing to talk or whatever it was.

00:23:22.577 –> 00:23:25.442
I’m quite happy
to actually,

00:23:25.442 –> 00:23:27.682
there’s a few episodes where
people have got back in touch

00:23:27.682 –> 00:23:30.342
with me before I’ve published it
and said, can we do it again?

00:23:30.962 –> 00:23:34.627
Because they weren’t happy with
some answer that they’d given.

00:23:34.797 –> 00:23:39.027
And I said, yeah. It was fine. So we
just rerecorded the whole thing,

00:23:39.027 –> 00:23:42.592
but avoided whatever it was that
they thought they done badly.

00:23:42.652 –> 00:23:45.692
And yeah. So I’ve forgotten
the original question.

00:23:45.692 –> 00:23:48.812
But, anyway, that was my answer
to whatever it was. Yeah.

00:23:48.812 –> 00:23:52.437
I guess when you talk about
the people who ask you to redo,

00:23:52.437 –> 00:23:55.957
it’s for the recorded one that,
that is published on Thursday.

00:23:55.957 –> 00:23:59.952
But I was, specifically talking
about the live format

00:23:59.952 –> 00:24:02.432
because you cannot redo a live.
No. You really can’t.

00:24:02.432 –> 00:24:05.952
And also we have things go wrong
with the live one because it’s live,

00:24:05.952 –> 00:24:10.217
you know. So sometimes the audio
on people’s side doesn’t work.

00:24:10.217 –> 00:24:13.897
We had, who was it? I think it might
have been oh, I can’t remember.

00:24:13.897 –> 00:24:18.222
But one of the guests, every
time they, refresh the browser,

00:24:18.222 –> 00:24:20.772
we got the frame of
what they were doing, the

00:24:20.772 –> 00:24:24.122
exact moment they came on the show and then that just stayed. You know

00:24:24.122 –> 00:24:26.547
so they were completely frozen
It was like looking at a photograph.

00:24:26.627 –> 00:24:30.787
Their audio worked, but the.. oh, it’s
Tim Nash who was on the other day.

00:24:31.662 –> 00:24:34.062
And he was just frozen,
but his audio worked and then

00:24:34.062 –> 00:24:35.822
he’d refresh and we’d
get a new version.

00:24:35.822 –> 00:24:38.542
So he mixed it up
a little bit and, you know,

00:24:38.542 –> 00:24:40.477
went to different parts of
the room and things like that

00:24:40.477 –> 00:24:42.817
and press refresh so that it
was all a bit entertaining.

00:24:43.037 –> 00:24:46.157
You can make something good
out of something bad with a live show.

00:24:46.157 –> 00:24:50.132
So long as the, so long as my
Internet doesn’t break, then it’ll,

00:24:50.452 –> 00:24:52.152
it will just keep
tracking. Yeah.

00:24:52.612 –> 00:24:57.337
Even if your Internet
breaks and you are not here,

00:24:57.337 –> 00:25:00.697
I think the live is continuing
with the guests. Right? Yeah.

00:25:00.697 –> 00:25:04.352
With this tool. I mean, the same
tool that we you both use.

00:25:04.812 –> 00:25:07.612
Yeah. So that’s true. It well,
actually, in the settings,

00:25:07.612 –> 00:25:09.052
you have to tell
it to do that.

00:25:09.052 –> 00:25:12.192
There’s one one little checkbox, and if
you do that, it’ll just keep recording.

00:25:12.252 –> 00:25:15.457
The only problem is then you
got to somehow get in and stop it.

00:25:15.597 –> 00:25:17.757
Otherwise, it’ll just keep
going forever and ever.

00:25:17.757 –> 00:25:22.177
But yeah, the tools
that we’ve got now are so great.

00:25:22.432 –> 00:25:24.992
When I started podcasting, it was
I mean, it wasn’t difficult.

00:25:24.992 –> 00:25:27.712
Don’t get me wrong. But it
there was certainly more difficult

00:25:27.712 –> 00:25:29.952
than it is now. And
things like this,

00:25:29.952 –> 00:25:32.657
we’re doing we’re recording
something in a browser. Yeah.

00:25:32.657 –> 00:25:34.737
You know, there’s a little video
of me and a little video of

00:25:34.737 –> 00:25:37.457
you and you can swap them around
and you can add music and

00:25:37.457 –> 00:25:40.577
you can add video into the background
and all of that kind of stuff.

00:25:40.577 –> 00:25:44.842
And it’s in a browser. It’s so
great. It’s really amazing.

00:25:44.842 –> 00:25:50.282
We have this kind of things that
sometimes you put on the show,

00:25:50.282 –> 00:25:53.507
you know, like
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:53.507 –> 00:25:56.327
You can add in little sound effects
and you can add in captions.

00:25:56.387 –> 00:26:00.222
And it’s quite nice because if you
can link it to, I don’t know, let’s say,

00:26:00.222 –> 00:26:03.232
YouTube channel or something, then the comments can come in.

00:26:03.232 –> 00:26:06.832
And in the platform, they appear as
a little, as a little button almost,

00:26:06.832 –> 00:26:09.247
and you press the button and
then it appears on the screen.

00:26:09.247 –> 00:26:12.607
And so people read and see who said
it and all that kind of thing.

00:26:12.607 –> 00:26:14.707
It’s amazing. We live
in an amazing time.

00:26:14.832 –> 00:26:17.232
I think we can name them
because they are so good,

00:26:17.232 –> 00:26:19.712
and both you and me
are using the same tool.

00:26:19.712 –> 00:26:27.263
So let’s, so it’s wave.video. Yeah.
Yeah. It’s a very good platform.

00:26:27.263 –> 00:26:31.782
And, yeah, as soon as we end
the recording, we can have the video,

00:26:32.072 –> 00:26:36.872
to open in the studio to the editor,
I mean. So, yep, very nice.

00:26:36.872 –> 00:26:40.617
It’s a it really is a great tool, actually.
There’s a whole bunch of rivals. There’s

00:26:40.617 –> 00:26:45.897
one called Streamyard. There’s another one called Restream, and there’s many.

00:26:46.102 –> 00:26:49.302
But I settled on this one,
because I like the options

00:26:49.302 –> 00:26:51.782
that it’s got available, and I
also like the fact that it kicks

00:26:51.782 –> 00:26:54.282
you out at the end
when you click stop.

00:26:54.787 –> 00:26:57.587
A button appears which says, I don’t
know, edit video or something,

00:26:57.587 –> 00:26:59.507
and you click that. And
you’re in a I mean,

00:26:59.507 –> 00:27:01.507
it’s not Final Cut on
the Mac or anything,

00:27:01.507 –> 00:27:04.602
but it’s a fairly decent
video editor where you can

00:27:04.602 –> 00:27:07.082
chop out the bits that you
didn’t want and, you know,

00:27:07.082 –> 00:27:09.802
drag things around and put captions
on it and all that kind of stuff.

00:27:09.802 –> 00:27:11.482
And, again, it’s all just
done in the browser,

00:27:11.482 –> 00:27:13.342
and it’s held within
this one platform.

00:27:13.817 –> 00:27:16.937
And then you can publish it to YouTube
if you want straight away or,

00:27:16.937 –> 00:27:19.997
in my case, I do all the things with
it. But, yeah, it’s brilliant.

00:27:20.217 –> 00:27:22.372
Wave.video.
Really good. Exactly.

00:27:22.372 –> 00:27:26.132
And you mentioned Restream,
but actually from Wave.video,

00:27:26.132 –> 00:27:29.732
you can stream to Restream. And
from Restream, there are, like,

00:27:29.732 –> 00:27:35.347
forty, like, usually gaming oriented,
lot of platforms. You know?

00:27:35.347 –> 00:27:38.162
So you can stream to a lot
of places. So Yeah.

00:27:38.162 –> 00:27:42.842
I stream using RMTP or is
it RTMP? I can’t remember.

00:27:42.842 –> 00:27:44.222
But, anyway, that protocol,

00:27:45.397 –> 00:27:49.157
stream from Wave into a variety
of different platforms like

00:27:49.157 –> 00:27:52.697
LinkedIn and YouTube, but then I
also stream it out to Restream,

00:27:53.612 –> 00:27:58.352
which then will send it to Twitter
because Wave doesn’t go to Twitter,

00:27:59.292 –> 00:28:03.807
and a couple of other places that I,
excuse me, that I can’t remember now.

00:28:03.807 –> 00:28:07.427
But it yeah. I use it for that as well.
It’s good. Yeah. Very very nice.

00:28:07.887 –> 00:28:11.292
So about this technical
equipment and stuff.

00:28:11.292 –> 00:28:14.992
So you mean over the years, it
has become easier and easier?

00:28:15.532 –> 00:28:18.447
I think the tools that you
can get to download onto your

00:28:18.447 –> 00:28:22.307
computer or in the browser, honestly,
you can do all of it in a browser.

00:28:22.527 –> 00:28:25.482
There’s not a single bit of
the process of creating a podcast

00:28:25.482 –> 00:28:27.582
that you cannot do in
the browser anymore,

00:28:27.962 –> 00:28:31.022
but there are definitely there’s
no reason to do it that way.

00:28:31.322 –> 00:28:33.187
So that’s what I meant by
the tools have got better.

00:28:33.187 –> 00:28:34.627
Like, this platform
that we’ve got now,

00:28:34.627 –> 00:28:37.507
this one that we’re using,
wave.video, five years ago,

00:28:37.507 –> 00:28:41.187
there was nothing like this, you
know, to set up a live stream.

00:28:41.187 –> 00:28:44.532
And this will take ten people all
at the same time and, you know,

00:28:44.532 –> 00:28:47.012
and you can change the order
and change the shape of

00:28:47.012 –> 00:28:49.752
the videos that we’ve gotten.
You know, it’s simple UI.

00:28:50.032 –> 00:28:55.987
Anybody honestly, anybody that has
access to a mouse and can see the

00:28:55.987 –> 00:29:00.932
screen, anybody can do a live
show or in this case,

00:29:00.932 –> 00:29:03.592
we’re recording it through
the exact same platform.

00:29:03.732 –> 00:29:07.517
We’re not going live anywhere. I
don’t think so anyway. No. No.

00:29:07.597 –> 00:29:13.437
And, and it takes twenty seconds
to figure out all the options.

00:29:13.437 –> 00:29:16.077
I mean, it does, doesn’t it?
You log in and there it is,

00:29:16.077 –> 00:29:18.332
and you just click thing. Oh,
it does that and it does that.

00:29:18.332 –> 00:29:19.872
Oh, brilliant.
I’m ready to go.

00:29:20.172 –> 00:29:23.292
So that’s what I meant by the tools
have got better, the web based tools.

00:29:23.292 –> 00:29:25.887
But the Mac apps and
things like that, you know,

00:29:25.887 –> 00:29:29.727
the Logic and the Final Cut Pro,
they probably have got better,

00:29:29.727 –> 00:29:33.372
but I’ve tended to go more
towards the online tools now to

00:29:33.372 –> 00:29:35.772
record everything just because
it’s so much more straightforward

00:29:35.772 –> 00:29:37.692
and sharing links is
easier. You know,

00:29:37.692 –> 00:29:40.732
the platforms will share a link
automatically to all your

00:29:40.732 –> 00:29:43.907
guests and things like that. So, yeah,
that’s what I was meaning there.

00:29:44.127 –> 00:29:50.762
Yep. So, you didn’t really have
technical challenges with your show.

00:29:50.842 –> 00:29:53.342
I’m sorry. I don’t say
podcast when there is video.

00:29:53.882 –> 00:29:59.777
I say show because podcast
for me is audio only. Yeah.

00:30:00.237 –> 00:30:04.177
But so you never
had, to face, like,

00:30:05.412 –> 00:30:08.452
very difficult technical
challenges or things that stopped

00:30:08.452 –> 00:30:13.657
you to do it, to start it,
or to continue? Yeah.

00:30:13.737 –> 00:30:17.817
So I began the one that’s now This Week in WordPress, I began that

00:30:17.857 –> 00:30:21.277
as a prerecorded thing where
I would literally stand just there.

00:30:21.892 –> 00:30:25.192
And it was audio only. And I
would… I put a microphone,

00:30:25.252 –> 00:30:30.177
a really cheap microphone. Honestly, it
was like fifteen dollars or something.

00:30:30.177 –> 00:30:31.317
It was really cheap.

00:30:31.537 –> 00:30:35.297
And I put it on a camera
stand, and I would have,

00:30:35.777 –> 00:30:38.732
a piece of paper that I’d written
down what I wanted to say and

00:30:38.732 –> 00:30:42.572
I click record and read out
what I want to say and make up

00:30:42.572 –> 00:30:43.932
the rest of it as
I went along.

00:30:43.932 –> 00:30:46.272
And then a few times I had to
rerecord it because I accidentally

00:30:46.332 –> 00:30:49.517
kicked the mic stand and
because the mic was so cheap,

00:30:49.517 –> 00:30:51.917
you got this boom,
this real loud noise.

00:30:51.917 –> 00:30:54.717
So I had to rerecord it, but
that’s how I started that.

00:30:54.717 –> 00:30:58.992
And then now, as soon as these
online tools became available,

00:30:58.992 –> 00:31:00.932
that’s what I just
migrated to.

00:31:01.232 –> 00:31:04.637
So if you are keen to start a
podcast or something like that,

00:31:04.637 –> 00:31:10.657
there really is no,
burden to it. It’s dead simple.

00:31:10.717 –> 00:31:13.762
There’s a little cost.
You have to, you know,

00:31:13.762 –> 00:31:15.622
you have to be having
a subscription.

00:31:15.682 –> 00:31:19.122
I think both you and I were lucky enough
to pick up this platform on a deal,

00:31:19.122 –> 00:31:21.602
which meant that we didn’t have to
keep paying a monthly fee,

00:31:21.602 –> 00:31:25.987
which is great. But, I don’t
suppose Wave will be much more than,

00:31:25.987 –> 00:31:28.787
I don’t know, twenty bucks a month
or something like that then.

00:31:28.787 –> 00:31:32.302
For the business plan that we
have, it’s forty eight a month.

00:31:32.302 –> 00:31:36.622
Oh, gosh. Okay. So you and I did very
well off that lifetime deal.

00:31:36.622 –> 00:31:39.522
I’m quite pleased with that. The
only other thing you need is a mic.

00:31:40.007 –> 00:31:44.487
But, well, actually, if you’re
doing a podcast, so audio only,

00:31:44.487 –> 00:31:48.032
really, all you need is
a computer and a mic.

00:31:48.972 –> 00:31:52.352
And, you know, if you buy a mic
which plugs into your computer,

00:31:52.492 –> 00:31:54.812
that’s even better,
because, you know,

00:31:54.812 –> 00:31:57.747
you can record straight onto
the hard disk of your computer.

00:31:57.887 –> 00:32:01.407
And you don’t need a good mic. You
genuinely don’t need a good mic.

00:32:01.407 –> 00:32:03.327
Obviously, if you’re
doing it like I do,

00:32:03.327 –> 00:32:05.952
it’s kind of
a nice thing to have.

00:32:06.332 –> 00:32:10.947
But thirty bucks, you’ll find
something that’s half decent,

00:32:11.267 –> 00:32:14.667
And I’ve got this thing here called
a pop filter. Yeah. I was going to…

00:32:14.867 –> 00:32:17.427
Eight dollars or something
like that. It’s just cheap.

00:32:17.427 –> 00:32:19.912
You but you can make it yourself
if you get a coat hanger and

00:32:20.072 –> 00:32:23.272
bend it and then put some material
in between. That’ll work.

00:32:23.272 –> 00:32:26.012
And this is just to stop the,
they’re called plosives.

00:32:26.232 –> 00:32:29.957
So it’s the p’s and the s’s,
that sort of thing from the air

00:32:29.957 –> 00:32:33.007
coming out of your
mouth hitting the mic. This is a

00:32:33.057 –> 00:32:36.757
mic which, has a USB connection,
so it goes straight into the back.

00:32:36.757 –> 00:32:38.902
A lot of mics have this thing
called an XLR connection,

00:32:38.902 –> 00:32:41.242
and that’s the round one
with three pins in it.

00:32:41.302 –> 00:32:43.542
And in order to get that
to work with a computer,

00:32:43.542 –> 00:32:45.302
you’ll need some sort
of audio interface.

00:32:45.302 –> 00:32:49.277
So this, I would advise getting
USB one to start with because

00:32:49.277 –> 00:32:53.037
it just means that you’d have to buy
the additional audio interface,

00:32:53.037 –> 00:32:56.902
and then you can record it straight
onto your computer

00:32:56.962 –> 00:33:00.622
or do what Patricia’s
doing. You don’t even need that.

00:33:00.622 –> 00:33:03.022
You it’s just recording
it in the cloud.

00:33:03.022 –> 00:33:05.187
And then when it’s finished
and you click stop,

00:33:05.187 –> 00:33:08.307
you’ll just download the recording.
It’s all done for you.

00:33:08.307 –> 00:33:13.572
Yeah. I have a wire,
a Røde wireless Go,

00:33:13.572 –> 00:33:18.792
and it records a backup inside the microphone. You know?

00:33:18.932 –> 00:33:24.267
In case the audio is not there or didn’t
record correctly, so I have a backup,

00:33:24.807 –> 00:33:27.207
track. Yeah. I have
a similar thing.

00:33:27.207 –> 00:33:33.092
Mine’s, if we’re getting nerdy, I
have this, similar. It’s called a DJI.

00:33:33.552 –> 00:33:38.052
Where’s the camera? It’s like that. And
it’s, same thing. This is great.

00:33:38.192 –> 00:33:42.257
Right? This little bit is the sort
of workhorse. It sit look.

00:33:42.257 –> 00:33:46.257
It sits on top of your camera or it can
just be in your pocket or whatever.

00:33:46.257 –> 00:33:49.482
And then it connects to these little
things, which is what you’re wearing,

00:33:49.482 –> 00:33:51.742
basically, isn’t it? It’s got
a little mic on the top,

00:33:51.882 –> 00:33:55.257
and you can attach this little,
what they call a dead cat. Yes.

00:33:55.257 –> 00:33:58.537
And attach the little dead cat so that
if it’s windy or something like that,

00:33:58.537 –> 00:34:00.617
it’ll get rid of
a little bit of that.

00:34:00.617 –> 00:34:04.557
And then it’s brilliant because
you just press go on this, this,

00:34:05.072 –> 00:34:06.752
and it records it in
multiple places.

00:34:06.752 –> 00:34:08.992
You know, it records it
onto here and onto these,

00:34:08.992 –> 00:34:11.632
and then you can download it onto
your computer. Anyway, sorry.

00:34:11.632 –> 00:34:14.727
I got a bit nerdy there.
Didn’t I? That’s great.

00:34:15.027 –> 00:34:19.107
So you and me are ready to do some
TikTok like a street interview,

00:34:19.107 –> 00:34:22.192
you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I
kinda bought it with the with

00:34:22.192 –> 00:34:24.532
the idea that’s what
I’d do at WordCamps.

00:34:24.992 –> 00:34:28.632
But, but I quickly discovered that most people at WordCamps, they

00:34:28.652 –> 00:34:33.377
don’t really wanna be accosted by me, you know, and have an interview there.

00:34:33.377 –> 00:34:36.577
And I kinda like to set
them up now so that I know that

00:34:36.577 –> 00:34:40.562
that person is aware of what
they’re, you know, expected to do,

00:34:40.562 –> 00:34:43.202
and they’ve got time to do it
in and all that kind of stuff.

00:34:43.202 –> 00:34:45.507
So I’ve never
really used them.

00:34:46.467 –> 00:34:50.567
I’ve tried it, but it didn’t
sit too comfortably with me.

00:34:50.627 –> 00:34:54.772
So maybe you can go in the streets
and you ask a question like,

00:34:54.932 –> 00:34:57.812
do you know what is
WordPress? Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:57.812 –> 00:35:01.512
And, like, we could do, like I
do the same and then we compare.

00:35:01.812 –> 00:35:06.077
Oh gosh. I am not committing to this,
Patricia, because I know I won’t do it.

00:35:06.857 –> 00:35:09.117
Okay. Okay.

00:35:09.257 –> 00:35:12.452
So if there is no,
technical challenge and,

00:35:12.932 –> 00:35:16.392
no challenge with people because
you said there was never

00:35:16.452 –> 00:35:18.532
anything that you
had to cut.

00:35:18.532 –> 00:35:21.977
I mean, people in the WordPress
community are mostly nice.

00:35:22.837 –> 00:35:27.562
So there was no, like, bashing or
stuff like that. You never… No. No. And

00:35:27.562 –> 00:35:32.742
that is miraculous, actually. And that hadn’t really occurred to me too much.

00:35:32.742 –> 00:35:36.247
But I think you’re right. And,
also, it’s a big enough,

00:35:36.967 –> 00:35:41.422
it’s a big enough ecosystem or could
let’s say community that, no.

00:35:41.422 –> 00:35:43.262
Ecosystem, I think, is better
because there’s quite a lot of

00:35:43.262 –> 00:35:47.042
people who use WordPress who are not
actually part of the community,

00:35:47.182 –> 00:35:48.462
probably not even
aware about it,

00:35:48.462 –> 00:35:50.622
but they might pick up a WordPress
podcast because they’ve

00:35:50.622 –> 00:35:53.637
Googled something that they wanna,
you know, want an answer to.

00:35:54.017 –> 00:35:55.537
It’s big enough that
there’s an audience,

00:35:55.537 –> 00:35:57.857
but it’s also big enough
that there’s a lot

00:35:57.857 –> 00:36:00.492
of people out there who have
things that they want to get out,

00:36:00.492 –> 00:36:03.852
whether that’s, you know, something
that they did or a project

00:36:03.852 –> 00:36:06.992
that they’re working on or a
plugin or a theme or a block.

00:36:07.347 –> 00:36:10.307
There’s always stuff to talk
about. It never runs out.

00:36:10.307 –> 00:36:13.527
And if it was a teeny,
tiny, teeny community,

00:36:13.827 –> 00:36:15.927
maybe having a podcast
would be more tricky.

00:36:16.292 –> 00:36:20.052
I mean, in the other direction,
you know, there’s you know,

00:36:20.052 –> 00:36:22.532
if I was talking about smartphones
or something, obviously,

00:36:22.532 –> 00:36:24.052
that community would
be even bigger.

00:36:24.052 –> 00:36:26.517
It would be more or less
all of the world,

00:36:26.517 –> 00:36:29.237
but WordPress is big enough
that you’ve got an audience and

00:36:29.237 –> 00:36:31.897
you’ve got guests
enough to keep going.

00:36:32.572 –> 00:36:37.152
But it’s not too overwhelming in
terms of its size. Yeah. Yeah.

00:36:37.452 –> 00:36:44.107
Yeah. So, what I wanted
to say is that you never had to face,

00:36:44.107 –> 00:36:51.282
like, to say to someone to
shut up, actually. No. No. No.

00:36:51.282 –> 00:36:55.382
Because yeah. Because of
this friendly community we have.

00:36:55.497 –> 00:36:59.657
I get ahead of that a bit.
Sorry to interrupt. Shall I stop?

00:36:59.657 –> 00:37:02.797
Do you wanna No. Please go
ahead. Okay. Thank you.

00:37:03.302 –> 00:37:07.222
I get ahead of that by creating
show notes, which I share before.

00:37:07.222 –> 00:37:11.007
So every episode, I write out
a whole bunch of things,

00:37:11.087 –> 00:37:14.627
and the template for that
begins with some expectations.

00:37:15.087 –> 00:37:18.547
And one of the expectations is things
like, you know, find a quiet spot,

00:37:19.167 –> 00:37:24.352
dedicate some time to it, have a,
if you’ve got a mic, use a mic.

00:37:24.352 –> 00:37:27.392
If you’ve got headphones, put
the headphones on, yada, yada,

00:37:27.392 –> 00:37:33.557
yada, yada. And also, if I’m in
the mood, I’ll write the questions out.

00:37:33.557 –> 00:37:36.612
Some some questions just to
kick the conversation off.

00:37:36.692 –> 00:37:39.412
Also give them an opportunity
to write what they wanna say so

00:37:39.412 –> 00:37:41.412
that I can be led by
them a bit as well.

00:37:41.412 –> 00:37:44.052
And that, I think,
would, you know,

00:37:44.052 –> 00:37:48.437
anybody faced with that documentation
would think, oh, okay.

00:37:48.497 –> 00:37:52.257
I need to have something to say.
And I’ve always done that.

00:37:52.257 –> 00:37:54.257
I’ve always created those show
notes because it just felt like

00:37:54.257 –> 00:37:56.472
the best way to sort
of prepare people,

00:37:57.252 –> 00:38:01.192
and maybe that’s part of it
as well, but I don’t know. Yeah.

00:38:01.812 –> 00:38:06.437
So you never faced any problem
by what I hear.

00:38:06.437 –> 00:38:08.997
So that’s great. And it’s
I’m very lucky. Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:08.997 –> 00:38:12.437
And it’s actually a good news
for me because I’m starting

00:38:12.437 –> 00:38:15.422
with that WPMondo
show. Sure.

00:38:15.422 –> 00:38:19.102
And we have more people
because the goal is to have

00:38:19.102 –> 00:38:23.897
other people interview in other languages. Okay. Nice. That’s, yeah,

00:38:23.987 –> 00:38:29.507
I love everything is, whatever is
about languages and whatever is about,

00:38:29.507 –> 00:38:34.632
like, cultural and differences that
we can all learn from each other.

00:38:34.632 –> 00:38:36.872
That’s, I’m very
passionate about this,

00:38:36.872 –> 00:38:40.197
so I want to this to be
shown in this, in this show.

00:38:40.197 –> 00:38:43.577
I already had someone,
for French that I will,

00:38:44.197 –> 00:38:49.762
publish soon before or after you. I don’t
know. So that’s great.

00:38:50.142 –> 00:38:55.762
And, yeah. So because you never faced
any challenge, so that’s wonderful.

00:38:55.902 –> 00:38:59.357
And as I said, a good news.
So maybe we could talk about,

00:39:00.637 –> 00:39:07.192
what would be your advice for
an aspiring podcaster or web

00:39:07.192 –> 00:39:11.612
show host or someone who
want to start? Yeah.

00:39:11.752 –> 00:39:14.507
As you said
before, just start.

00:39:15.127 –> 00:39:19.207
I don’t have a lot of wisdom, but
I’ve got a couple of things,

00:39:19.207 –> 00:39:22.242
but they’re not particularly
profound, but here they come.

00:39:22.802 –> 00:39:26.562
The first thing is if
just commit, do it.

00:39:26.562 –> 00:39:30.182
And, you know, if after a few weeks
you’re not enjoying it, then,

00:39:30.497 –> 00:39:34.417
you know, cease and that’s that you’ve
not enjoyed it. It wasn’t for you.

00:39:34.417 –> 00:39:37.457
But I had a weekly cadence,
which I just stopped to.

00:39:37.457 –> 00:39:39.297
And it’s a miracle to
me that that happened.

00:39:39.297 –> 00:39:43.922
So that would be my first bit of advice.
Just set a cadence and just go for it.

00:39:44.962 –> 00:39:50.567
The second bit of advice, I’ve now
forgotten, which is absolutely ridiculous,

00:39:50.567 –> 00:39:53.527
but that is the state of my brain.
What was the second bit of advice?

00:39:53.527 –> 00:39:56.502
It was something along
the lines of, oh, yeah.

00:39:56.502 –> 00:40:01.402
Don’t forget your second bit of advice.
No. It wasn’t that. I’ve forgotten.

00:40:01.462 –> 00:40:03.387
I had two bits, but
one of them’s gone.

00:40:03.387 –> 00:40:07.067
So the first one I’ll stick with
is cadence. Oh oh oh oh, yeah.

00:40:07.067 –> 00:40:10.527
No. I’ve remembered it. It’s slight
aberration of the brain there.

00:40:11.467 –> 00:40:14.282
Is be quiet and listen.

00:40:15.142 –> 00:40:17.322
That is to say, if your
job is to interview,

00:40:18.502 –> 00:40:22.547
nobody’s tuning into
my podcast to listen to me.

00:40:23.087 –> 00:40:25.727
They’re coming to
listen to the guest. Right?

00:40:25.727 –> 00:40:26.927
That mean that
stands to reason.

00:40:26.927 –> 00:40:30.422
When you watch a chat show on telly,
we have this one in the UK called,

00:40:30.422 –> 00:40:32.842
you know, Graham Norton and
there’s a bunch of others.

00:40:32.862 –> 00:40:35.322
Actually, he’s maybe a bit of an exception because he’s quite

00:40:35.322 –> 00:40:37.722
a character, but I’m not really
tuning in to watch Graham.

00:40:37.767 –> 00:40:40.887
I’m tuning in because this guest
is on and this guest is on,

00:40:40.887 –> 00:40:42.567
and that would be
the same with the podcast.

00:40:42.567 –> 00:40:46.842
So give the guest time to
talk, listen to what they say,

00:40:46.842 –> 00:40:51.422
and respond to what they say so that
the conversation goes on a journey.

00:40:51.482 –> 00:40:54.927
It’s not just the same
thing every time. Actually,

00:40:54.927 –> 00:40:57.487
there are some podcasts in the WordPress space that buck that trend.

00:40:57.487 –> 00:41:00.642
So Michelle Frechette has a podcast
where she, the whole premise

00:41:00.642 –> 00:41:03.442
is that she asked the exact
same questions to every guest,

00:41:03.442 –> 00:41:05.842
and that works because you
know what’s coming. Right?

00:41:05.842 –> 00:41:10.197
But you’re still listening to
the guest. So listen. WP Coffee Talk.

00:41:10.197 –> 00:41:14.037
That’s right. Yeah. Thank you.
And, so that would be it. Yeah.

00:41:14.037 –> 00:41:16.932
Those two bits. Listen to
the guest and the other one,

00:41:16.932 –> 00:41:22.292
which I’ve now forgotten. Do it
and commit to a cadence. No.

00:41:22.292 –> 00:41:25.017
I was joking. I was joking
that, though. Okay.

00:41:26.197 –> 00:41:29.397
But, I think to each
their own format. Right.

00:41:29.397 –> 00:41:34.082
I think, I was interviewed by,
Remkus de Vries on. Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:34.082 –> 00:41:38.882
Nice. Within WordPress. And he
said it’s not an interview.

00:41:38.882 –> 00:41:41.682
It’s a conversation.
So it was a bit different than

00:41:41.682 –> 00:41:46.487
what you say because, also, we had
a conversation with also his part.

00:41:46.487 –> 00:41:50.572
You know? So that was
a bit different,

00:41:50.572 –> 00:41:55.292
but I think every format is good
to try or to test. And Yeah.

00:41:55.292 –> 00:41:58.332
And I think what I maybe I
misspoke there or at least

00:41:58.332 –> 00:42:00.387
misrepresented what
I was trying to say.

00:42:00.387 –> 00:42:05.047
What I meant by listen was
whatever comes out of the guest’s

00:42:05.107 –> 00:42:08.122
mouth should inform
what you say next.

00:42:08.422 –> 00:42:11.452
So that it is a conversation,
if you know what I mean. So it isn’t

00:42:11.452 –> 00:42:14.682
that you just be quiet, let them speak, and then you say something.

00:42:14.682 –> 00:42:18.797
It’s more that, okay. They said that.
I didn’t expect to hear that.

00:42:19.077 –> 00:42:22.197
Well, we’ll go with that
rather than this list of things

00:42:22.197 –> 00:42:24.752
that I’ve got written down.
We’ll go on a journey and

00:42:24.752 –> 00:42:27.472
see where it ends up
and, and that yeah.

00:42:27.472 –> 00:42:30.592
So I think actually we’re in
agreement about that. Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:30.592 –> 00:42:34.627
Yeah. And I actually had
written some topics for you,

00:42:34.627 –> 00:42:37.947
and I didn’t even look at it
because Yeah. There you go.

00:42:38.227 –> 00:42:41.452
In the flow of conversation is
like if I was having

00:42:41.452 –> 00:42:45.452
a drink with you at a WordCamp or
Right. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

00:42:45.452 –> 00:42:46.892
Yeah. It’d be a bit weird
if at a WordCamp,

00:42:46.892 –> 00:42:51.167
you went you took out a list of
questions whilst we’re here,

00:42:51.167 –> 00:42:53.587
whilst we had a chat. Yeah.
That exactly like that.

00:42:53.727 –> 00:42:55.087
And I think
people are really,

00:42:55.647 –> 00:42:57.962
people are really fascinated
by those kinds of conversations,

00:42:57.962 –> 00:43:00.282
aren’t they? We all
love, you know,

00:43:00.282 –> 00:43:01.722
hearing what other
people have got to say.

00:43:01.722 –> 00:43:04.522
And on a podcast, that’s
probably more true than ever.

00:43:04.522 –> 00:43:08.627
You are tuning in expecting to
hear that kind of conversation.

00:43:08.627 –> 00:43:11.962
So, yeah, it just works.
It’s a nice format. Yes.

00:43:13.242 –> 00:43:17.042
Do you have anything
you want to address, any other topic

00:43:17.042 –> 00:43:20.402
that we have not been talking
about, or you want

00:43:20.402 –> 00:43:24.607
to keep going on personal things,
or what do you think of the future?

00:43:24.787 –> 00:43:28.947
I mean, I think the future is
really bright for WordPress.

00:43:28.947 –> 00:43:32.182
I know that there’s a lot of
change happening in the projects.

00:43:32.342 –> 00:43:35.862
We’ve got WordPress 6.6
today. Yes.

00:43:36.262 –> 00:43:38.342
Is coming out today, so
that’ll be interesting.

00:43:38.342 –> 00:43:41.687
But, yeah, WordPress is
over the last, five years,

00:43:41.687 –> 00:43:44.407
but really ramped up in
the last couple of years.

00:43:44.407 –> 00:43:48.967
Lots and lots of change, and
I have no reason to doubt

00:43:48.967 –> 00:43:51.262
that the thing,
the software, the product,

00:43:51.262 –> 00:43:53.502
the community is gonna go
from strength to strength.

00:43:53.502 –> 00:43:55.762
It certainly feels
that way to me.

00:43:56.807 –> 00:44:00.407
The other thing to mention
is that if you,

00:44:01.287 –> 00:44:05.132
if you don’t like WP Builds, I do
another podcast actually,

00:44:05.692 –> 00:44:08.032
in the WordPress space,
which is called Jukebox,

00:44:08.092 –> 00:44:10.912
and it’s on the
WP Tavern website.

00:44:10.972 –> 00:44:13.792
So if you go to
WPTavern.com,

00:44:13.977 –> 00:44:17.197
depending on when you listen to this
and when you go to that website,

00:44:17.257 –> 00:44:20.537
I don’t know where that podcast will be,
but it’ll certainly be in the menu.

00:44:20.537 –> 00:44:24.592
If you go to the podcast menu at the top
right of the screen on a desktop,

00:44:24.592 –> 00:44:27.392
there’ll be episodes will be in there.
And that’s, that’s another tape.

00:44:27.392 –> 00:44:31.012
That’s, there’s a little
bit more, how to describe it.

00:44:32.207 –> 00:44:34.687
It’s a different
different flavor to it,

00:44:34.687 –> 00:44:37.187
and there’s a lot of live
stuff that I do at events.

00:44:37.567 –> 00:44:41.602
So I go to WordCamps and
actually interview people who’ve

00:44:41.602 –> 00:44:43.802
just come off the stage
and things like that.

00:44:43.802 –> 00:44:46.802
And, I don’t actually do it
in the in the public arena.

00:44:46.802 –> 00:44:50.007
We have a media room at those
kind of events, so I do them there.

00:44:50.167 –> 00:44:53.367
But it’s a different flavor, and it’s
obviously a different publication.

00:44:53.367 –> 00:44:55.547
And it’s not one that
I’m in charge of.

00:44:56.567 –> 00:45:00.002
It’s different, and it’s going through a period of change at the minute.

00:45:00.002 –> 00:45:02.162
So we’ll see how that
works out. Yeah. Yeah.

00:45:02.162 –> 00:45:05.362
It’s not it must not be the same
if you have to do it,

00:45:06.227 –> 00:45:09.507
even if, I know that you have
no pressure about the content,

00:45:09.507 –> 00:45:11.507
but you have to do it
seriously, you know.

00:45:11.507 –> 00:45:15.042
On your own, I mean, if something happen, it’s your own.

00:45:15.042 –> 00:45:16.872
It’s your choice. You know? It’s. Right.

00:45:17.032 –> 00:45:21.212
It’s no one is going to
tell you that it’s not,

00:45:21.832 –> 00:45:25.077
going to do it because it’s yours,
and it’s like your house.

00:45:25.617 –> 00:45:28.097
Yeah. Yeah. There’s
definitely there’s definitely a

00:45:28.097 –> 00:45:31.377
sort of freedom that comes with having
your own thing, whereas it’s,

00:45:32.342 –> 00:45:35.482
I have a different hat that I wear
if you like when I do that podcast.

00:45:35.542 –> 00:45:38.922
And I think in many ways,
it’s for the betterment

00:45:38.982 –> 00:45:40.737
of that podcast,
the Tavern one,

00:45:40.897 –> 00:45:42.917
because it does create
a different sort of atmosphere,

00:45:42.977 –> 00:45:46.917
and we have a different type of guests
on, and I cover things differently.

00:45:47.057 –> 00:45:51.152
I don’t get into sort of self
promotional stuff on the Tavern.

00:45:51.152 –> 00:45:54.032
It’s more community based and that,
you know, those kind of things.

00:45:54.032 –> 00:45:55.152
What’s going on with
the community?

00:45:55.152 –> 00:45:57.977
What’s going on with the platform,
the software, all of that?

00:45:58.137 –> 00:46:01.977
Whereas on WP Builds, I sort of have
that license because it’s mine.

00:46:01.977 –> 00:46:04.057
I can, you know, if somebody
wants to come on and they just

00:46:04.057 –> 00:46:07.357
wanted to talk a long time about
their product, that’s fine.

00:46:07.552 –> 00:46:10.992
We can do that. So, yeah,
different things. Sorry.

00:46:10.992 –> 00:46:16.657
So very self serving all of that. I,
I apologise. No. It’s good.

00:46:16.977 –> 00:46:21.697
On the WP Tavern podcast, I listened,
to a few of the episodes you did.

00:46:22.177 –> 00:46:25.762
And I love your energy and your
enthusiasm when you like something.

00:46:25.762 –> 00:46:29.622
I mean, we can really hear it. You know?
It’s Oh, yeah. Oh, that’s amazing.

00:46:30.002 –> 00:46:33.117
Yeah. Yeah. I really do like a lot
of what’s going on there as well.

00:46:33.117 –> 00:46:35.997
And that’s one of the
things I have to pinch

00:46:35.997 –> 00:46:40.372
myself about is that, you know,
I just get to talk to people.

00:46:40.372 –> 00:46:44.232
That’s literally what I
do is talk for a job.

00:46:44.532 –> 00:46:49.387
And sometimes these people
are really quite profound.

00:46:49.387 –> 00:46:52.767
You know, they come up with
some innovation or some thing,

00:46:52.827 –> 00:46:54.987
some part of the community
that I’d never heard of,

00:46:54.987 –> 00:46:59.622
and it really is very often I sort of go,
Wait. Hang on. What did you just say?

00:46:59.682 –> 00:47:02.642
No. Let’s go through that again.
I didn’t fully understand.

00:47:02.642 –> 00:47:05.602
We rehash it and get to the bottom
of whatever it is, but it’s yeah.

00:47:05.602 –> 00:47:10.527
It’s nice. One that was,
specifically, like, you were so amazed.

00:47:10.527 –> 00:47:14.207
It was, I think, with, about
the Activity Pub and you had,

00:47:14.527 –> 00:47:17.552
Matthias Pfefferle on. Yeah.
Yeah. I love all that.

00:47:17.552 –> 00:47:21.552
That so this is things like the Mastodon and the Fediverse and stuff.

00:47:21.552 –> 00:47:25.537
And, I just think that’s such
an interesting take on social networks,

00:47:25.537 –> 00:47:29.457
and it’s about time, would be
my take on it.

00:47:29.457 –> 00:47:32.257
So it’s less of a
walled garden.

00:47:32.257 –> 00:47:35.452
So it’s like Twitter,
but it’s federated,

00:47:35.592 –> 00:47:38.072
so it’s not owned by
one particular entity,

00:47:38.072 –> 00:47:40.972
and you can migrate your accounts
between all the different servers.

00:47:41.227 –> 00:47:44.347
It’s well worth checking out. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you. That was a good one.

00:47:44.347 –> 00:47:48.667
I enjoyed that. Indeed.
So thank you so much.

00:47:48.667 –> 00:47:54.042
If you want to add anything else
you can. No. Not really.

00:47:54.042 –> 00:47:57.662
I think I’ve probably done enough
promotion to last a lifetime.

00:47:58.122 –> 00:48:00.097
I would just like to say thank
you for inviting me on.

00:48:00.097 –> 00:48:02.097
I’m enormously
humbled that you,

00:48:02.497 –> 00:48:06.097
you would want to talk to
me about podcasting. That’s great.

00:48:06.097 –> 00:48:08.462
I really appreciate the opportunity
to have a chat with you.

00:48:08.462 –> 00:48:11.042
It’s lovely. That
was a great pleasure.

00:48:11.182 –> 00:48:16.082
And I’m very much
looking forward to see you next time.

00:48:16.867 –> 00:48:19.907
In another WordCamp somewhere.
Yeah. I’ll be there.

00:48:19.907 –> 00:48:21.907
I’ll as many as I can
get to, I get to.

00:48:22.307 –> 00:48:25.847
You know, commitments of life get in
the way, but the ones that I can,

00:48:25.907 –> 00:48:30.392
I’m there with, you know,
I’m there in heart, soul,

00:48:31.092 –> 00:48:34.692
body, and mind. Yes. Something
like that. And heart. Yeah.

00:48:34.692 –> 00:48:39.177
Exactly. Okay. So thank you so
much, Nathan, and see you soon.

00:48:39.177 –> 00:48:41.437
Yeah. Thank you. Lovely
to chat with you.